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1. Sailor Ripley said:

   August 30th, 2009 at 10:17 am

   Good stuff, Scip. The blemish is the lack of Big 12 championships. Like to see him knock another of those down, asterisks be damned.

2. cricketslayer said:

   August 30th, 2009 at 10:39 am

   Absolutely agree with Sailor. Mack needs something without Vince–even if it’s simply another conference title–to cement his legacy. When looking at the totality of his career, remember that he never won an ACC title at UNC, either. One conference title to show for all those wins will hurt his legacy. Otherwise, he’ll be known as the guy who turned Longhorn football around, put butts in the seats and had one magical season with Vince. He deserves more.

3. Bob in Houston said:

   August 30th, 2009 at 11:15 am

   Agree with Sailor. I thought it would be impossible for a Texas coach to survive having 60 hung on him by OU, but Mack survived it twice.

   I think this year’s game has the potential to be a classic and it should be close, as Stoops’s team has as much to prove as Texas.

   cricket… Mack didn’t win a title in the ACC because of this fella named Bowden, who was on one of the all-time coaching runs. Stoops also has been a formidable opponent, and he’s been able to capitalize on his chances in the B12CG.

   Mack has an all-time record to match anybody… anybody. I don’t think that one game defines him anymore than any of the other games that he has lost (or won, for that matter) has defined him.

4. LonghornScott said:

   August 30th, 2009 at 11:19 am

   I don’t think this season defines Mack’s success, and I don’t think that’s what you’re saying at all. If this team displays the aggressive attitude and practiced execution that I believe it’s capable of, you have to look at Mack as a man that always kept learning, kept improving the program and eventually brought it to one of its most refined states in it’s history. He’s a man that emphasized his strengths and strengthened his weaknesses. If not then things get muddy.

   Those of us that have been following closely the whole time will always remember Mack’s arc here, the flaws and the progression. For me, I am ecstatic about the way things are happening now… from recruiting, to practice structure, to personnel decisions. Even schematically I am overall a pretty happy camper: this team is a world away from where it was about 6 years ago (or even 3 years ago).

   I don’t think this year can define Mack for me, too much is already determined there. That typed, last year’s team complete surprised and amazed me and that certainly changed the way I look at Mack… hell it seems like it changed the way he looks at himself. I think if you look at the way he carries himself now and the way he comments about players and situations it’s just as sharp a contrast as the product on the field (as opposed to their former states).

5. magnusbleuveigner said:

   August 30th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

   This can be answered with a short yes on no, but the reasoning will take as many pages as James Mitchners Hawaii. Instead of spewing countless words/pages of volcanoes rising from the ocean floor, I will attempt to answer this. Humor me.

   The simple answer is yes, of course. Especially if you’re going by Scipios line of thinking that Mack is only leading us for the next year or two. Greatness is defined by championships. Greatness equates to legendary. Legends don’t win one championship. Legends have multiples that make Jon and Kate jealous. If he leaves with one MNC he can be marginalized with the Vince Young argument. We, the royal we, can all admit to Mack’s shortcomings. Hell, who doesn’t think, that with better coaching we should have atleast beaten Colorado and had the chance to face Miami? If we go into that game with the deserving qb, I won’t discount our chances, logic be damned.

   I want to touch on the simplistic genius of what Scip said about greatness being defined by the end of tenure. He’s correct, as concerning coaches. I don’t buy into the theory when it comes to players, but to coaches it pertains. I don’t want Mack in the same category as Fulmer and Carr, guys from good schools, that won a singular championship. There’s a difference, Mack is in no place to leave us in shambles, but still. One championship as the final definition of greatness doesn’t work. Two is indisputable.

   Let me leave you with this, only two Big 12, or Big XII (for you Romans) championships is acceptable in it’s insigniffacance only if accompanied by two natty champs.

   We must beat OU. We must win the league championship, We must beat whoever we play in the championship. And we need to do it to supplant Mack in the Anals of history to shut OU up.

6. parlinhall said:

   August 30th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

   He’s such a competent manager (in the best sense of that term) that an easy handle–a single play, incident, or decision–is damned hard to come up with.

   I remember Mackovic’s gamble in the first Big-12 Championship and Greg Davis’s regrettable call in the Tech game last year. For me, each of those decisions was and will be definitive. I don’t have a similar “go to” metaphor yet for Mack; what I have is a set of words (“really,” “very,” “feel”), an accent, smile, and winning personality.

   Fairly or unfairly, Mack often seems to be the man in the gray flannel suit–a tremendously efficient and charismatic salesman/manager. This is obviously not an accurate portrait of him or his achievement. Nor does it give him the credit that he deserves. At the same time, it’s arguably a reputation that has had its advantages over the years.

7. kafka said:

   August 30th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

   The horns won an MNC in 2005, over achieved last year and have won 3 of the last 4 from OU,. This gives Mack a get out of jail card in case things go south this season. Mack has already solidified his reputation as one of the greatest UT coaches of all time. If he can win another MNC before he retires (and this year has great potential), it will elevate Mack to another level.

   Why do you think Mack will retire within the next two years? The program is running very smoothly. As long as Muschamp is DC, the horns are probably going to be great.

8. texoz said:

   August 30th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

   This thought is somewhat related to Mack’s legacy. As much as everyone has griped about our weak schedule this year, and rightfully so, it could be a great benefit to our 2010 QB (probably Gilbert at this stage). One would hope that Gilbert gets a lot of PT this season, which would set him up nicely for next year. Otherwise, we start 2010 with a QB that’s had little game time experience. Over the Mack era I would say that our backup QBs have not seen much action. (One of my few personal gripes with Mack’s coaching.) That should change this year.

   If Mack only coaches for 2 more years and he wants to finish 2-0 against OU, then he’ll need to get Gilbert ready for that 2010 UT vs OU match-up now, not next spring or summer.

9. PrimeTime said:

   August 30th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

   One thing I hate is how people don’t give me enough credit as a game day coach and a game manager. Everybody wants to talk about how he is more of a CEO/Manager instead of an Xs and Os type of guy. Nobody wants to talk about how Mack, in my opinion, is one of the best game managers and decision makers in the country. You never see Mack make bogus or stupid calls in terms of going for it on fourth down or not going for it. His fake punts and field goals are almost automatic and you know when he will go for it. Mack is excellent in the snap back to the up back on punting situations and it works every time. His management of timeouts is excellent. Remember how he managed the comeback against OSU in ’07. He didn’t panic when we got back to 14 and do some stupid onside kick or didn’t start calling timeouts as soon as OSU got into field goal position. Even last year against Tech, I thought he managed the second half extremely well although the go ahead TD drive was managed poorly in my opinion.

10. magnusbleuveigner said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    Nope. I take Gilbert right now with our team over Drew Allen/Blake Bell. However, Gilbert is the carrot that might keep Mack chasing. How many coaches quit mid-tenure of a possible John Heisman trophy winner? Where’s Huckleberry when you need him?

    Of course if Big Red Auto pays for Sammy B. to come back next year they’re the favorites.

11. magnusbleuveigner said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    Apparently Mack is on here under the guise “Prime Time.” Damn I lost my money. I thought he was going to go with “Brown Mack.” Whatever author came up with “Brown Mack,” kudos. It stuck with me and I’ve made numerous UT minded friends chuckle.

12. hopefulhorn said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Good question, Scip, on a point from an excellent roundtable.

    Barring your knowing something about Mack’s plans that I don’t, my answer is no. I think your scenario of Mack stepping down in the next year or two is most likely with a win over OU, followed by a Big 12 title and at least getting to the Rose Bowl/MNC game. It is more likely still with a win there for a second piece of crystal. I suspect that if this year’s team falls short of expectations (starting with a loss to OU), Mack may stay on longer than the next season or two.

13. srr50 said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    I suppose his timeline is somewhat tied to Deloss. If he wants to spend a few years as the AD then yes, I could see him leaving the HC position in a couple of years. Otherwise, I’m not sure.

14. probablymaybe said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    I don’t think this years OU game will necessarily define MB’s greatness, but in my mind he needs 2 more Big 12 Titles or 1 Big 12 Title and another MNC in order for his legacy to not be poo pooed by many.

15. magnusbleuveigner said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    Dodds goals are simpatico with Browns. Two Championships equal legendary status and retirement. Hell, I’ll be out there building statues for the dos.

    Bottom line, Browns performance is calling the shot. Or, Mack is going to coach for 10 more years and the coach in waiting tag is purely justification for overpaying for a coach who we can’t afford to lose. The world is predicated on politics, and we’re fully compliant.

16. magnusbleuveigner said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    probablymaybe said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    I don’t think this years OU game will necessarily define MB’s greatness, but in my mind he needs 2 more Big 12 Titles or 1 Big 12 Title and another MNC in order for his legacy to not be poo pooed by many.
    ##################
    OU defines his greatness because without those wins you can’t get to the season defining greatness. We have to beat OU every year. Where did all these participation blue ribbon people come from? WE MUST WIN!

    “No excuses, or your whole plans useless”—-Slim Thug. Yeah I listen to him, ala, the Office Space cast listening to the Geto Boys.

17. probablymaybe said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Mangus,

    My only point was losing to OU doesn’t automatically mean we can’t win a Big 12 title. Likewise, winning that game but not winning the Big 12 title would further tarnish Mack’s legacy.

    I fully realize that this game is huge and is about as big of a “must win” game to help cement Mack’s legacy, but if we win, every game becomes a “must win,” due to the lack of titles Mack has to show for. Additionally, I think we’re set up for legitimate MNC runs for the next 3 or so years, so even if he doesn’t get it done this year he will have more opportunities.

18. Flamingmonkey said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    I believe this year defines Mack only in that should he win another confrence title and reach the national title game I believe he will retire, and those last year achievements will weigh heavily on anyone thinking about his tenure here. Failing those accomplishments I too fear he will always be thought of as a good coach who had a great player and rode him to unexpected heights. Either way I think this is Mack’s last year. I don’t believe Muschamp would have stuck around if he wasn’t told the wait would only be one more year.

19. EyesOfTX said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    Largely, yes.

20. Tim said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    Beating OU in the RRR is only half the battle Mack has this year. He has to get past a pesky OSU team, and Florida in the National Championship game, if he gets there.

    For some reason I don’t think UT fans are going to be happy with a Big 12 title and a NC loss this year.

21. probablymaybe said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    flamingmonkeyass,

    You might be right, but it’s pure speculation at this point. There are a lot of reasons why it makes sense for Muschamp to wait until Mack is ready to call it quits.

    1) His family can finally settle down. He’s said that this was important to his wife and that they loved Austin and didn’t want to move again. I really think his decision might have been as simple as that. Hypothetical conversation:

    MB: Listen Will, we already know you’re an excellent coach. Undoubtedly you’ll be offered head coaching jobs as long as you here. I’d hate to see you leave because I see you as the next Head Coach at the University of Texas. Will, I’m not planning on coaching until I’m Paterno or Bowden. I can’t give you a concrete answer as to when I’ll retire, but I think it’ll be within the next 5 or 6 years. Together with the blessing of DeLoss, I’d like to offer you the title of “Head Coach in Waiting,” until I retire.

    WM: That’s great news. My wife and kids love it here and have told me repeatedly that the want to make Austin there permanent home. I love it here too and it would be a dream come true to take over this program. My families happiness is important to me and this would prevent me from having to relocate them yet again. Do I have your word that if your feelings change about your retirement that you’ll let me know?

    MB: Fuck Yeah, bro!

    2) He’s getting paid very well and he has a bad ass job.

    3) When Mack retires, he’ll be taking over a perennial power that has lots of alumni, money, first rate facilities, and located in a fertile recruiting area. This might be more appealing to him than trying to turn around a program with the deck stacked against him.

    4) He may feel like he still has some things to learn as a head coach and handling the additional responsibilities that come with a program this large Maybe he see’s some value in getting mentored by someone who knows what it takes to be successful at Texas.

    5) He’s not even a man yet according to Mike Gundy, so it’s not like his window of opportunity is slipping due to age. At 38, he’s got plenty of good coaching years ahead of him.

    I don’t understand why everyone is so confident Mack’s retirement is going to happen after this season or the next. Is 5 or so years really that long to wait when you’re guaranteed one of, if not the best coaching job in college football?

22. musburger said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    Both the Texas and Oklahoma programs should be at or near a peak this season, as each team has experienced, senior QB’s which project to be 1st round picks. Should Mack Brown win both the game and the Conference title, it would make more sense to retire after this season, rather than to end his career after breaking in a brand new QB next season. On the other hand, if Brown plans to coach 3-5 more seasons, there is every reason to believe the parts are in place to make quite a run.

    If Texas loses this season, neither Texas nor Oklahoma figure to be quite as good next year, primarily due to the rebuilding that will take place at the QB positions. Assuming Mack Brown doesn’t plan on being at Texas very much longer, I think it would be smart, in terms of legacy, to step down after this season if things play out well.

23. scagnetti said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    i think srr50 hit the nail.
    i believe, here, sometime after this season, DeLoss will announce his retirement, to take effect in on calendar year, and then nominate Mack as his successor.

    they come out together like HenryJames’s one-time closeted roomates.

24. edsp said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 5:59 pm

    RRR, one game, three hours, defining a 12-year (or more) career? Sir, step away from the light. Step back some more. If you get back far enough, you won’t need the blackout shades. You’ll see the light, not be blinded by it.

    Mack Brown’s legacy is secure. Can it get better or worse? Sure. But one game is not going to define his UT tenure. Not even a matchup of 13-0 Florida and 13-0 Texas in January.

    To other points: record vs. Stoops/BlowU . . . Did Mack ever take a solid favorite, a favorite of any kind, into the RRR and lose? Stoops did 10 months ago . . . Conference titles: Definitely an irritant — but would you trade BCS wins over Michigan and Ohio State for two more Big 12 titles (assuming winning those titles didn’t provide a ticket to the MNC)? . . . Retire within two years? Maybe. But I don’t see any reason to do so, unless the grind gets to him. You could see in Darrell Royal’s face, hear it in his clipped words, that the grind got to him at age 53; at 58, I don’t see that in Mack.

25. ChrisApplewhite said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    I think as long as Mack wins another MNC he’ll be fine, legacy-wise. 2 is a career maker regardless of any warts. One, with Vince, leaves him as an underachiever, ultimately.

26. probablymaybe said:

    August 30th, 2009 at 6:58 pm

    edsp,

    With all due respect, I think you and others are missing the point a little bit. Obviously, Mack already has a shit ton of accomplishments regardless of what the outcomes of the next few seasons are. That said, his track record is marred by the lack of conference titles and many critics argue that VY is the only reason he has 1 conference championship and a MNC. At this point, it’s hard to shut those people up,

    It’s fairly easy to shut up anyone with common sense on the whole VY is the only reason garbage. No one ever says Coach XYZ only won a MNC/Super Bowl because he had player such n such. Mack Brown is the only coach I’ve ever heard called out for it. It’s ridiculous. Every coach that’s won it all has great players. The 1 conference championship is hard to defend though.

    His harshest critics will lump the lack of conference titles in with his early years (App ST, Tulane, and UNC tenures). Anyone looking at it objectively will give him a pass for the lack of titles during those years b/c Appalachian State and Tulane suck and Florida St was unbelievably bad ass while he was at UNC.

    This is where it gets hard to argue. He comes to Texas 1 year prior to Stoops. Both programs are more or less in the same shape when they take over. Both Schools have similiar advantages and both coaches do a great job of restoring order in short time.Then comes the bombshell.

    Stoops has 6 Big 12 titles and has played for 4 MNC’s
    Mack has 1 Big 12 title and has played for 1 MNC

    Anyway you slice it that side by side comparison is not pretty and that’s what he’ll be remembered for if he doesn’t start reeling off Big 12 titles and/or another MNC title.

    In short (and as ridiculous as it might sound for someone who has done so much for this program), his legacy right now is good, but falls short of being great.

    That’s why one could argue that this years OU game means so much, especially since most are predicting Mack will retire this year or the next. Times running out for him to even things up.

    Lastly, the only thing you can really say to Sooner when the point to the conference titles is…
    Brown: 3-0 in BCS bowl games
    Stoops: 1-5 in BCS bowl games

    Stoops has some shit on his legacy too and it’s important to remind them of that, thoughi It’s impossible to win the lack of conference championships arguement with the rest of the college football world. Especially when compared to what Pete Carrol and Urban Meyer at this point.

27. Levander Williams said:

    August 31st, 2009 at 8:28 am

    Yes, to the outside world, Mack really needs to win against OU this year. Doing so will provide some assurance that when he encountered adversity he was able to self-evaluate, make changes, and continue to improve. Of course, few of the observations by the casual outsider will recognize the foundational improvements that Mack has brought about (team & program unity, recruiting infrastructure and approach, embracing tradition, an overal level of integrity that eludes many of the other major programs, to name a few), but which are invaluable elements of how and why we are where we are.

    Those of us who are more observant of the program than the casual observer see this transformation as beginning in mid-2004, with somewhat of a side-trip down Lazy Lane in 2006 and 2007, and then a rededication to excellence in 2008.

    I’m with the group who thinks that when Mack hired Will Muschamp, he was already planning his exit strategy. It lines up well with DeLoss Dodds’ presumption of retirement, and I think that if Mack wins the MNC this year, Dodds will retire within the year and Mack will step into that role.

    Going back to the original question, I think that if Mack doesn’t beat OU this year his plans for transition to the AD’s office are significantly complicated. With Colt as a senior and the obvious dependency of this offense on a talented & experienced QB to make it effective, 2009 will be his last, best chance for a couple of years to win it all, and I don’t think he has the appetite to wait 2-3 more years for another chance.

    I believe Mack will make an undefeated run through the schedule his clear and undiminished priority. What we have to see – and what all of us are expecting to see as a vindication of Mack’s legacy – is how he approaches this year. Does he embrace the mission that is before him and his team? Does he have the abilty to motivate this team when the attention on this team is so intense?

    If he pulls it off, he comes to a respectable 5-6 against Bobby, he’s got two MNCs (against Bobby’s one), he’s an undefeated 4-0 in BCS games (vs. no better than 3-5 for Bobby), and he’s left the program in great shape to hand off to Muschamp with a great deal of momentum. Most of all, he gets to go out on top while still keeping an ongoing role with the program as AD.

28. kafka said:

    August 31st, 2009 at 8:37 am

    ProbablyMaybe, you make a lot of good points about why Mack is great. Mack resurrected the UT football program after it had gone 30+ years without an MNC. Mack is 3-0 in BCS games. Mack has been able to do this without cheating, while staying super classy (eg: not running up the score on hapless opponents).

    Even if you stipulate that Stoops is a better coach than Mack (for the sake of argument), Mack has still been a great coach for UT. BTW, Mack is a much better fit for UT than Stoops would be.

29. probablymaybe said:

    August 31st, 2009 at 9:49 am

    kafka,

    We’re on the same page. I don’t mean to slight Mack at all. I’m very proud that he’s our coach and of all that he has accomplished. Unfairly or not, he’ll always be compared to Stoops and the lack of conference championships unless he closes the gap over the next few years and/or brings home another MNC. The bad thing is the potential for Stoops to widen the gap is a very real possibility.

30. fonzie said:

    August 31st, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Mack Brown will not retire in two years. Mark it down.

31. UTIceberg said:

    September 1st, 2009 at 7:11 am

    I happen to agree that if Texas runs the table, I think Mack rides off into the sunset and calls it a (coaching) career. I just get that feeling. That certainly doesn’t mean I want him to do so, but I get the sense that lots of Horn followers don’t want to let go, don’t want to admit that there is the very real possibility that Mack retires within the 1-2 year time frame. Will I be shocked if he stays longer? Of course not, but I get the sense that some who are suggesting that there is “no way” Mack retires soon just don’t want to admit this to themselves. I’ve been as pleased as could be with Mack’s job performance and I don’t want it to end, but to suggest that it can’t happen is just sticking one’s head in the sand.

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