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1. dedfischer said:

   April 15th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

   Are you even making Cytherea Youporn time for yourself?

2. glenn said:

   April 15th, 2009 at 8:31 pm

   this is great. you come up with the coolest stuff.

   football is great, great writing.

   but boxing . . . boxing is poetry.

3. Kafka said:

   April 15th, 2009 at 10:44 pm

   That was an interesting period in heavyweight boxing. Ali was pretty evenly matched with Frazier and Foreman. Foreman was too big for Frazier (every time Frazier tried to get in close, Foreman’s heavy jab would reset Frazier).

   At the time I loved Ali and still think he was the greatest heavyweight boxer (especially the jab, of course) of all time. Now I don’t like Ali as much because of his mouthiness.

   I think Tyson, in his prime (i.e. when his trainer was still alive), would have beaten Ali in his prime. Tyson would have gotten inside Ali’s jabs by mauling Ali.

   I don’t understand why any fighter would trade jabs with Ali (but most of them did).

   That is one thing I love about MMA, you can pay a heavy price for clinching. One thing I don’t like about MMA is ground and pound (especially hitting guys when they are already unconscious). I would much prefer that the guy on top try a submission.

4. Nicole-Barbe Ponsardin said:

   April 16th, 2009 at 12:58 am

   A good bookend for When We Were Kings?

5. TaylorTRoom said:

   April 16th, 2009 at 4:03 am

   Kafka, Ali’s prime was ‘65 – ‘69. By the ’70s, he had lost a little speed and punching power. In Ali’s prime, he would have crushed Tyson- Ali was too fast and too mean (in the ring) for Tyson.

   I remember an old (late ’70s) HBO retrospective on the greatest boxers that showed a mid ’60s Ali (Clay) fight. He knocks the guy out, and while the guy is falling, obviously unconscious to the slo-mo camera, Ali popped him in the head two more times before he hit the ground.

6. exuLt said:

   April 16th, 2009 at 4:42 am

   Aah, Frazier would have been the only one answering the bell in the 15th if his trainer hadn’t blinked.

   The shine ceding the blind as it were.

7. Mr Funny said:

   April 16th, 2009 at 4:47 am

   No way Tyson beats Ali in his prime – Ali was bigger and faster and would have jabbed him the entire time

   Ali later in his career had trouble with guys who did not punch hard but had a chin. Guys who got his full attention usually lost to him (Sonny Liston, Foreman)

8. La Cosa Nostradamus said:

   April 16th, 2009 at 5:21 am

   If you think Tyson could have withstood Ali, you need to watch the Manila fight in its entirety, as well as the Foreman Rope-a-dope fight. Ali was capable of dishing out an astonishing amount of punishment, and had maybe the greatest ability to withstand punishment of all time. He would have killed Tyson. Young Foreman was twice the imposing presence and fighter that Tyson ever was. For Ali to defeat him was nothing short of unbelievable at the time. Despite Ali being a world-wide hero, few people gave him a chance before the fight. Foreman was just flat scary, mean, and dangerous. So was Tyson, but he was also considerably smaller.

   The announcer makes a statement about halfway through the second round of the Rope-a-dope fight that it’s the longest a Foreman fight has gone in two years. Think about that.

   Watch both of those fights if you get a chance, and particularly if you are young enough to have never seen them. Boxing used to be really, really special, and these fights show it. The only ones better are the Ward/Gatti trilogy, but that’s a subject for another day.

9. Texoz said:

   April 16th, 2009 at 5:28 am

   In sports there is the eternal debate of “Who is the greatest ______ of all time.” Different eras produce different champions, thus it is impossible to point to one and say for certain, “Yes, that was and will always be the greatest _______ ever,” especially when discussing teams.

   With individuals you might have an easier set of parameters. By most counts Ali falls into the greatest boxer of all time. Same can be said for Lance Armstrong in cycling.

   I was a young boy in the early 70s and watched some of those Ali fights. He was an artist with a different kind of canvas. In one moment a Michelangelo with his grace and fluid movement, then in the next a Picasso with his manipulation of all the pieces of the event, i.e. the crowd, the media and his opponent.

   For the boxing experts out there, was there ever any other heavyweight (all time) that had a chance against Ali?

   I watched “When We Were Kings” when it came out and thoroughly enjoyed it. I look forward to seeing this film.

10. Eddy Merckx said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 5:46 am

    “By most counts Ali falls into the greatest boxer of all time. Same can be said for Lance Armstrong in cycling. ”

    Lance is great, but get back to me after he wins a few classics, the World Championship, and holds the hour record.

11. Art Vandelay said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 7:04 am

    Scipio,

    I saw the Thrilla documentary the other night, and it was intriguing. Back in the day Ali was the “good guy” and Frazer the “bad guy”. The documentary made me feel sorry for Frazier. That is one the beauties of good storytelling. The passing of time and different perspectives.

    I love watching the old fights from the 70’s. It’s nostalgic. Still one of the greatest calls in broadcasting “Down goes Frazier!! Down goes Frazier!!” (Frazier v Foreman). I miss Cosell.

    As a young kid in the 70’s Ali was one of my sports heroes (my dad had a different viewpoint), but my perception of him has changed somewhat over the years. I still consider him the greatest heavyweight along with probably Joe Louis. If you haven’t seen the Joe Louis documentary a few months ago on HBO you absolutely have to. Very compelling.

    http://www.hbo.com/events/joelouis/

12. WhoooTex said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 8:59 am

    “I think Tyson, in his prime (i.e. when his trainer was still alive), would have beaten Ali in his prime. Tyson would have gotten inside Ali’s jabs by mauling Ali.”

    I know it’s a minority viewpoint but I will jump on this bandwagon: I think 1988 Tyson could have beaten Ali. I’m not sure what odds I’d put on it, but Tyson had devastating close-range power. Foreman is often cited as an example of how well Ali could handle power punchers, but I think of Foreman as more of a long-range power puncher. I think Tyson, bobbing and weaving to avoid Ali’s jab, could get in close and land hooks to the body as well as uppercuts, and I think he could have eventually knocked Ali out if he got consistent penetration. Could.

    Now, having said that, we have to remember that Tyson’s best performances took one of two forms:

    1) The opponent was so shit-a-brick frightened of Tyson that he crumbled at the earliest opportunity. From Marvis Frazier to Michael Spinks, these guys couldn’t wait to take a decent punch and fall to the ground. Ali would NOT have been frightened of Tyson.

    2) The “I don’t give a fuck, let’s throw down” approach. Trevor Berbick and Larry Holmes are the best example of this– Holmes went in there and tried to trade toe-to-toe with Tyson and that TKO was sad to watch. He was absolute rubber by the fourth round. Ali would be too smart for this approach.

    So I talked about what could happen. What I think WOULD happen is that, like Bonecrusher Smith or Quick Tillis, Ali would keep his distance with the jab and tie Tyson up when Mike got inside. The fight would probably go the distance (remember, this is 1988 Tyson w/Kevin Rooney still in his corner; this is pre-easily-frustrated Tyson, so I am assuming Tyson wouldn’t open himself up to heavy damage from Ali when the fight dragged on). In that type of fight, I think Ali, being the more skilled fighter, would win on points.

13. BatesHorn said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 9:18 am

    I’m loving this offseason stuff. This site is rapidly becoming one of my favorite blogs all around, not just football.

    I’ve always felt bad for Joe Frazier. He got the absolute raw end of a the PR stick, something you see every day here in DC.

    For what it’s worth, if you don’t think Ali’s jab would have destroyed Tyson, watch the Buster Douglas fight again. Douglas destroys an admittedly out of shape Tyson from start to finish, primarily with a devastating jab.

14. Scipio Tex said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 9:39 am

    exult:

    The documentary gets into that very thing. Ali came back to his corner in the 14th round and said, “Cut my gloves off.” He was spent. While his corner pleaded with him, Frazier’s man threw in the towel. Two fighters not too far from death, IMO.

    As for the Mike Tyson hypothetical, I think elite boxing is very much about matchups: see the Hagler, Duran, Hearns, Leonard round robin. Each guy posed different problems for the other.

    Similarly, Ali & Frazier were evenly matched while Foreman plows Frazier and Ali outwits Foreman. Hell, Ken Norton Jr gave Ali fits.

    I think an in his prime Ali – say 1967 – should have been able to decision Tyson. He would have put the jab on him and clinched constantly when Tyson worked his way inside. It would also play to Ali’s favor that Tyson was a small heavyweight. Referees were largely in awe of Ali and would allow him his clinch game, as he did it to Frazier in all of their fights.

    Equally, a much more marginal heavyweight champion like Lennox Lewis – focused and motivated – would have given Ali big problems. He had a longer jab, much more strength, and would have bullied and mauled Ali in the clinch. We’re talking about a 6-5 240 pound guy with skills. The heavyweights of the 1970s never fought anything like that.

    I remember watching the Buster Douglas fight on HBO and it made me late for Homecoming dance by two hours. My date was not pleased. Screw it -I was watching history. I remember that Vegas wouldn’t even post odds. Buster beat the dogshit out of Tyson. Robin Givens had gotten in that boys head in a bad way and he had lost guys like Atlas and Rooney who kept him training well and focused.

15. Nordberg said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 9:56 am

    The Buster Douglas fight remains the most surprising thing I’ve ever seen in sports.

    Douglas showing up a few months later 30 lbs. overweight to fight Holyfield, and getting knocked out in the second round, is probably the least surprising.

16. PatronSaint said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Hell, Ken Norton Jr gave Ali fits.

    Why? Was Ali a Bills fan?

17. WhoooTex said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 10:36 am

    Great discussion, guys. Kills time in the offseason.

    BatesHorn– keep in mind, I’m just talking about Tyson circa 1988. While Cus D’Amato had died, the Cayton/Lewis mgmt team and Rooney corner team were still able to keep Tyson fit and focused. He peaked with the Spinks knockout; that’s the Tyson I think could compete with Ali. By 1990, even if he’d taken Ali seriously in this hypothetical, his skills had eroded to the point I think Ali would have beaten him badly. Not to mention, Tyson’s corner and training team were staffed with unqualified sycophants. Even if it was a “fight”, lasting 6+ rounds, post-88 Tyson wasn’t going to get the treatment to make it the distance.

    Nordberg– totally agree, I remember the fight being the same night as the NBA Slam Dunk competition and I was taping the Tyson fight to watch live what I thought likely to be the more important of the sporting events.

    There’s a book on Tyson-Douglas, “The Last Great Fight”– HIGHLY recommend this. Great read.

18. dedfischer said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    Speaking of boxers, I am fortunate enough to visit the hometown of the Hurricane next week, lovely Paterson, NJ, the melting pot armpit of America.

19. BatesHorn said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    I took a tape of the Douglas fight with me to college, it was such an amazing event. My junior year, some douche starts mouthing off about how Douglas got lucky while we were having a keg party at my house, how Tyson was going to destroy Holyfield once he got out of prison. I popped that tape in and shut him the fuck up quick.

    Goot Times.

20. BatesHorn said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 11:08 am

    GOOD times.

21. Nordberg said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    “Nordberg– totally agree, I remember the fight being the same night as the NBA Slam Dunk competition”

    Holy shit, that’s right! I remember flipping back and forth for the first couple of rounds… until it became apparent that an actual boxing match was emerging, as opposed to the normal sacrifice that took place during a Tyson fight.

22. Steve Nebraska said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    I think Buster Douglas knocking out Mike Tyson has to be considered perhaps the biggest upset in the history of sports.

23. Kafka said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    No heavyweight was faster or a better jabber than Ali. But even if you are fast, the ring is small and it is hard to get away from a guy who is willing to take a punch to get inside. Ali had a great jab but wasn’t likely to knock you out with one punch.

    Frazier’s style gave Ali fits and prime Tyson (similar in style to Frazier) beats prime Frazier. Tyson was short but super powerful and overwhelming in his intense onslaughts. Tyson was the most ferocious (in a burst) boxer of all time (like a wolverine).

    Ali had trouble with Frazier because Frazier got inside his jab (the only way to fight Ali). Tyson would be dangerous because he had devastating short range power and the ferocity to overwhelm a defense. He would fight inside Ali’s jab and have the power to knock out Ali.

    I agree that it depends on how successful Ali was at clinching. If the ref forced him to fight, Ali easily could have been in trouble.

    I watch MMA rather than boxing now. In MMA, when a fighter clinches (or even both fighters are not sufficiently aggressive), the crowd starts booing right away to force the ref to break up the clinch or stand them up.

    If Ali-Tyson goes 15 rounds, then Ali wins (he is the superior boxer (as opposed to fighter)) but I think Tyson had a very good chance of ending it early. Put it this way, if Tyson and Ali fight 10 times, Tyson is going to knock out Ali in some of those fights. If ever there was a guy who had a puncher’s chance, it was Tyson (in his prime).

    Foreman lacked stamina and tried to jab with Ali. He still hurt Ali but had a flawed strategy. The worst way to fight Ali was trading jabs.

24. Nordberg said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    “Put it this way, if Tyson and Ali fight 10 times, Tyson is going to knock out Ali in some of those fights.”

    This is almost exactly what I was going to type, word for word. I’d say Ali wins 6 or 7 of the 10, but in a few Tyson knocks him out early.

25. SkyMonkeyHorn said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    Ali was the greatest Heavy of all time, the one thing that he had over everyone was he knew how to get in peoples heads and make them question IF they were good enough to beat Ali.
    Ali talked through out the Foreman Fight and made him a punching bag, I felt sorry for Frazier who never had a chance to beat Ali before Most of their fights…. Ali knew how to win with his head and also with his physical ability.

26. TaylorTRoom said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    I don’t know why y’all keep matching 25 year old Tyson vs. 35 year old Ali. Before he was suspended for draft dodging, Ali had a hell of a knockout punch. He screwed up his hand coming back, and never had the same KO power. Up through his suspension, he was 29 – 0 as a pro, with 8 KOs and 14 TKOs.

    I was never an Ali fan, but I have to admit he may have been the best ever in his prime. He had a 4 round TKO of Archie Moore, a 5th round and 6th round TKO of Henry Cooper, a 7th round corner retirement and a 1st round KO of Liston, and a 12th round TKO of Patterson, all before he was 25. These were all big time fighters, and he was knocking them out. People remember him for his fights in the ’70s, but that wasn’t his prime.

27. Texoz said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    He was the poetic pugilist and there will never be another like him.

    “Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee” is considered one of the greatest sports quotations of all time.

    I forgot how often he wrote poems or was rapping before rapping was invented.

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali

    “While I’m talking to you I’m thinking up the greatest short poem of all time. This poem tells how it feels to be great as I am: Me — wheee!” In response to the question “Who writes your stuff?”

    http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/3980

28. Scipio Tex said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    I felt sorry for Frazier who never had a chance to beat Ali before Most of their fights…. Ali knew how to win with his head and also with his physical ability.

    Skymonkey, you know Frazier beat Ali in their first fight, right?

29. Nordberg said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    My father and his friends were watching Ali spar in Houston in 1967. They were heckling him pretty hard, and after a while Cassius decided he’d heard enough. He took out his mouthpiece, turned to them and yelled “You boys better knock off that jive, or I’m gonna come get you in five!!”.

    I’d give just about anything to have a video of that.

30. WhoooTex said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 6:02 pm

    “This is almost exactly what I was going to type, word for word. I’d say Ali wins 6 or 7 of the 10, but in a few Tyson knocks him out early.”

    Especially if Ali doesn’t dodge Tyson’s Lightning Uppercut in the first 90 seconds of Round 1.

31. SkyMonkeyHorn said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 7:07 pm

    I felt sorry for Frazier who never had a chance to beat Ali before Most of their fights…. Ali knew how to win with his head and also with his physical ability

    ST, Yes I am aware of that fact, the key words are “MOST of their fights”. Ali lost big time to Frazier then Ali started to talk bad about Smoking Joe, talk that he backed up after the first fight. Ali made hash out of the minds of the fighter that he got in the ring with.Ali started his fight talk 2-3 weeks before he got in the ring.
    I agree with TRoom that his prime was before he was 25-26 years old and not in the 70’s.

32. Kafka said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 7:07 pm

    I started watching boxing before Ali hit the scene (sometime in the late 50’s). What was amazing about Ali was his foot and hand speed, defense, and precision jabbing. He was never known as a real powerful guy. He was actually quite slim when he was young. He typically knocked guys out after landing about 1000 jabs. Some accused him of taking too long to knock out guys so that he could punish them more.

    When Ali beat Archie Moore, Archie was ancient (in his 40’s, right?).

    Henry Cooper was a valiant guy but not (IMHO) an elite heavy weight. He took a tremendous amount of punishment before he finally went down. Lot of heart but not much speed.

    Paterson was knocked out by an accumulation of blows (12th round knockout).

    The Liston knockout was a phantom punch.

33. TaylorTRoom said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    “Especially if Ali doesn’t dodge Tyson’s Lightning Uppercut in the first 90 seconds of Round 1.”

    Have you ever seen one of Ali’s fights from his prime? He would bob around with his gloves down by his thighs- he wanted to invite his opponent to attack. He knew he was faster, and wasn’t in danger.

    His trademark KO? He would dance and taunt his opponent into lunging fwd. Ali would bob away, with his fist pulled up right into the space where the foe’s head was lunging with his missed punch. When fighting a slugger in the ’60s, the opponent would be bleeding in three rounds. Most of his TKO were due to excessive bleeding and closed eyes.

34. TaylorTRoom said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 7:27 pm

    Who were the elites Tyson was beating?

    Check this out to see Ali in his prime…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU2YPXghFkU&feature=related

    Who exactly were Tyson’s best wins against? Old Larry Holmes? Undersized Mike Spinks? Trevor Berbick? Frank Bruno? Tyson was the best fighter in a poor era, when boxing lost popularity. Ali was boxing’s best during its greatest era.

35. Kafka said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 7:57 pm

    Ali said it best:
    “Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee” (i.e. his game was predicated on speed, defense and jabbing, not power).

    If prime Ali fought prime Tyson 10 times, do you think Ali would win all 10? Tyson had the perfect style and power to attack Ali. Maybe Tyson does not win the majority of those 10 matches but I think he would win some of them.

    Both fighters amazed me: Ali with his speed and precision and Tyson with his ferocity and power.

36. Princeton Horn said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 8:04 pm

    This will be ridiculed, but assuming modern training both Joe Louis and Jack Johnson deserve consideration. Both had a devastating punch, which Ali never had, even when he set his feet.

37. Vasherized said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 10:09 pm

    Sailor,

    You might want to buy the rights to boxingcarnival.com if April is a sign of where the offseason is headed.

    A review of Punch Drunk Love can’t be far off.

38. Scipio Tex said:

    April 16th, 2009 at 10:11 pm

    Princeton:

    Those are two fantastic fighters. Both Joe and Jack would be cruiserweights though. Joe might even be making the cut to light heavyweight.

    So would Frazier, for that matter.

39. TaylorTRoom said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 4:14 am

    Would Tyson win 2 or 3 out of 10 against an Ali in his prime? I don’t know…would Ken Norton beat Tyson 2 or 3 times out of 10? I don’t know what the point of the question is other than to claim that an inferior fighter is close in skill to the superior fighter.

    I don’t see a Tyson strategy for winning. Tyson won his most famous fights with a barrage of punches, constantly advancing until he landed enough to disorient the opponent and make him defenseless. That kind of strategy never worked on Ali. Check out his record, remembering that he fought quite a few guys with big punches- Liston, Shaver, Foreman, Norton, and Frazier. Ali’s first loss was to Frazier- 15 round decision. Ali was 29. His next loss was at age 31, a 12 round split decision to Ken Norton. Ali finished that fight with a broken jaw, by the way. His next loss was a 15 round split decision to Leon Spinks at age 36. He had a corner decision in round 10 vs. Holmes when he was 38 and a unanimous decision in 10 rounds to Berbick the next year. What in that record of 61 fights, and never getting KOed or TKOed, makes you think that Tyson’s style would be effective?

40. Nordberg said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 5:28 am

    Good points. I’m reconsidering my position.

    Oh, and:
    “I don’t know why y’all keep matching 25 year old Tyson vs. 35 year old Ali.”

    You’re right, in my head, I had 1988 Tyson fighting 1974 post-comeback Ali. Not sure why.

41. HenryJames said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 5:33 am

    Because all black people look alike to you, Nordberg.

    They all look alike to you.

42. glenn said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 6:07 am

    great thread. thanks to all for the commentary and the memories.

    special thanks to art for a sharp recollection of the great cosell. you look at the crappy sports commentators these days and think what you’d give for another five minutes with old howard. i think he was a lion among sports commentators every bit as much as ali was a lion among fighters.

    dedfischer, paterson is where sam colt set up his first firearms company. he named his first pistol the paterson. you might check to see if there is a museum or such.

    this piece does a nice telling:

    http://www.texasranger.org/dispatch/2/ColtWalker.htm

    one thing not mentioned – i assume because this sort of thing is not the forte of the writer – is that colt contacted whitney also because whitney used and understood old eli’s greatest invention: design and dimensioning so that parts would be interchangeable. if you had a walker with a busted hammer and one with a bent barrel, you were back in business in a few minutes. or you could send off for a hammer and the new one would fit without modification. it was truly one of the great advances in design and manufacturing, and i assume the cornerstone of modern geometric dimensioning and tolerancing.

43. dedfischer said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 6:17 am

    glenn, the pawn shop is usually one of the first stops I make once I land in Newark. To buy a Colt before entering Paterson.

44. glenn said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 6:56 am

    hah, i’ll bet.

    my experience with jersey is like my experience with oklahoma: getting through it.

    up there it was pretty much verrazano to outerbridge and then a mad dash to easton. also like oklahoma, i found it is not possible to hold your breath the whole way.

45. dedfischer said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 7:36 am

    Newark is nothing to shake a stick at. I got stuck overnight there once during high school graduation night. After driving around for an hour in search of a safe place to eat, I determined I would be better off ordering a pizza and locking myself in my hotel room.

46. glenn said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 7:54 am

    i don’t like the thought of overnight in newark.

    i’ll thumb wrestle the spirits that devil me tonight and ask them to pitch in with yours to watch over you.

47. Scipio Tex said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Ded:

    The Hurricane is apropos for this thread, though he had none of Ali’s charisma or heart. He was an absolute piece of shit portrayed as some hero of the people.

    I’ve spent a lot of time in Newark and Northern NJ. Its charms are never apparent.

48. Ricky said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Figured this was about the only appropriate place for this, but since we are talking about non-Longhorn sports that have passed their heyday, this is the lead headline at CNN.com
    “SI: ‘Dancing’ champ acquitted on tax charges”
    It wasn’t until I realize that SI meant Sports Illustrated that I understood that Castroneves had been acquitted of his tax charges. Talk about a sport that has fallen out of the public consciousness.

    As a kid I remember seeing a lot of the post-suspension Ali fights, back when you could actually watch top-notch boxing on regular TV. I was always impressed with him as the wily veteran that seemed to outsmart better athletes and punchers, but never knew how he fought in the 60’s.

    Funny, but I haven’t seen a top-flight boxing contest probably since the early 90s when I had a friend with HBO and I don’t have enough interest to ever watch one ‘pay for view’. It seems kind of a shame and it may be why boxing has lost its luster. But cable has introduced me to a ton of great fights I wouldn’t have even been alive to see. I love watching boxing on ESPN Classic!

    I have seen a lot of old Ali fights and it really is amazing how much quicker he was than his opponents. He literally looked like he was playing with them.

49. Kafka said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    “Ali had a hell of a knockout punch”.

    No, Ali did not have a hell of a knockout punch. Frazier, Norton, and Foreman all hit harder. The greatness of Ali had little to do with his one punch knockout capability and everything to do with his hand and foot speed, jab, and defensive ability (also heart, intelligence, and ability to take a punch).

    “I don’t see a Tyson strategy for winning. Tyson won his most famous fights with a barrage of punches, constantly advancing until he landed enough to disorient the opponent and make him defenseless. That kind of strategy never worked on Ali.”

    That is exactly the strategy that Frazier used and it worked great against Ali. Frazier beat Ali once and almost killed him another time (where Frazier’s corner threw in the towel). It also worked well for Norton against Ali.

    The only way to fight Ali was inside Ali’s jab. Nobody was better at fighting inside than Tyson. Tyson had tremendous inside power (more than Frazier) and (IMHO) could have knocked out Ali.

    Again repeating, if the refs permitted Ali to continuously hold Tyson when he got inside, Ali would win. If the refs forced Ali to fight, Tyson had the power and ferocity to knock out Ali. Also, Tyson was stronger than Ali so I’m not sure that Ali would have have been 100% effective in clinching with Tyson.

    Ali fought some big guys with big punches (Foreman, for example) but they mostly did not fight inside (they were used to using their reach, as do most big fighters) so Ali was able to use his mobility to avoid getting hit (but still able to pepper them with his jab).

    Ali never fought a guy with Tyson’s combination of inside game, power, and ferocity.

    As a matter of logic, the point that Ali was the best fighter in his era and that his era featured better fighters than Tyson’s era does not prove that Ali would beat Tyson all of the time, most of the time, or even any of the time.

    Fighting (and sports in general) is all about matchups. Statistics can only go so far in proving things in sports and is misused quite often. The law of diminishing returns is setting in this discussion because we are repeating ourselves.

50. wtf said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    all of you are full of shit. Rocky Marciano was the greatest heavyweight to ever live. In my day, we didn’t wear gloves. We just went down to the docks and taped our hands. and we liked it.

51. TaylorTRoom said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    kafka, this will come as a surprise to you, but being compact with short arms has never really been considered an advantage for a boxer. There is a reason most sluggers are big, tall, strong guys. Tyson was the exception. I have a strong suspicion, that in our imaginary universe where 25 year old Ali fights 25 year old Tyson, that Ali beats the crap out of Tyson’s face while Tyson tries (unsuccessfully) to get in close with Ali. Look at the old footage to see how fast Ali was. Just as the 30 year old Tyson had lost a lot of ferocity, the 30 year old Ali had lost some of his quickness and speed.

    I don’t get the “clinching” comments. 30 year old Tyson clinched as much as 30 year old Ali. Tyson was clinching and grabbing because he couldn’t land punches on Holyfield, and was trying to wrestle him. Ali won his “rope-a-dopes”; Tyson didn’t.

    Note- Ali had a far, far better record in fights that lasted 10 rounds than Tyson did.

52. Kafka said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    This is getting tedious, Taylor.

    Ali’s advantage was in boxing, that is jabbing from long range and staying out of reach of his opponent’s jabs. Tyson don’t play that game. Tyson would turn it from a boxing match (where Ali had the advantage) into an inside slugfest (where Tyson had the advantage).

    Short arms are a disadvantage when you are jabbing but they are more efficient inside. Tyson had tremendous power on his short punches. There is no advantage to foot speed and long arms and a great jab on the inside.

    I don’t think Ali could always stop Tyson from getting inside. Ali took longer steps than Tyson (i.e. Tyson could change direction quicker, the ring is a small place, Tyson was willing to risk getting hit to get inside, and Tyson was very good at getting inside). Frazier was able to get inside on Ali so I think Tyson could have.

    As was mentioned, Ali was great at clinching. By clinching, Ali could tie up Tyson until the ref separated them safely. Once Tyson got inside, clinching is the only thing that could keep Tyson from punishing Ali. If Ali does not clinch, Tyson beats the crap out of Ali.

    We are talking about these guys in their prime, so how they performed when they were 30 years old is not relevant.

    I already said that if the match went the distance, Ali probably wins.

53. TaylorTRoom said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    Here’s some wild stuff…

    Patterson calling out Ali…

    http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1076508/5/index.htm

    and some more call out…

    http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077772/index.htm

    Patterson taking it very seriously…

    http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077893/index.htm

    and an anti-climax

    http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077979/1/index.htm

54. glenn said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    young ali was that quick, and he was toying with the other fighters.

    i remember it being confidently stated that he couldn’t take a punch and that he would go down like a sack of potatoes if somebody could catch up with him. kind of like the 70mph chickens in that joke that nobody knew if were any good to eat.

    i really shouldn’t comment on the garden state because i have very little experience of my own there, and i have thoroughly enjoyed some places that i had always been told were bad. i essentially parrot the opinions of others who do have first-hand tales to tell, and i have no reason to doubt them.

    my son and i were chuckling about misnamed places a while back, and ‘garden state’ came up. we agreed that sterling city was neither sterling nor a city. same with garden city. i told him about driving over to garden plain, kansas one day and deciding the name was half right.

55. Scipio Tex said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    Most of New Jersey is very pretty. But the population center – Northern New Jersey – is a pit.

56. the Bobs said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    Kafka, I’m going to have to vote with TaylorT on this one…

    Everybody thought the secret to beating Ali was ‘getting inside’, but it turned out not to be so easy, and also not to be so automatically a disaster for him. He could punish people that got inside with his preternaturally quick hands, and he proved that he was able to take a lot of punishment when he had to.

    Also, if you’re counting on Tyson being able to “change direction quicker” you really haven’t seen Ali in his prime. I don’t honestly think Tyson could do anything quicker than Ali, other than melt down. Which would probably be his ultimate downfall – Ali had a terrific ability to frustrate his opponents, and let’s face it, Tyson turned out to not be so hard to frustrate when things didn’t very quickly go his way…

    You are right, that fights are all about style matchups – Frazier gave Ali all he could handle, and arguably could have won all 3 of their fights – they were all that close, while he couldn’t get past the first couple of rounds with Foreman. But I wouldn’t be so quick to anoint Tyson as better than Smokin’ Joe, and therefore an even better matchup vs. Ali. I think Frazier has been consistently underrated as a truly great fighter, mostly because he spent his entire career under Ali’s considerable shadow, and partly because Foreman so thoroughly demolished him.

    There’s a truly great book about Ali written way back by Jose Torres (I think it’s called “Sting Like a Bee”), and the whole first section was Torres talking about how he had planned to approach a fight with him when that was being floated a few years earlier. He had some really good insights on what he thought he would need to do, and why that was so hard to actually accomplish when facing Ali.

    At the end of the day, I’d certainly like to see a “Tyson vs. Ali in their primes” fight. And who knows, you could be right about the outcomes, but… I still think Ali was just such a smarter fighter than Iron Mike, and would withstand the fury of the first few rounds, then punish with his jabs, and when Tyson got inside, clinch a lot, sneak in a few good shots of his own, and eventually completely frustrate him. Don’t discount Ali’s toughness…

57. Beaten Dead Horse said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 7:12 pm

    Fuck this shit. I’ve seen tape of every fight fought by Ali, Frazier Foreman and Tyson many, many times. I watched as a kid Ali win his gold medal and Frazier win his. A 25 year old Ali beats a 25 year old Tyson 9 out of 10 times and a 25 year old Frazier 10 out of 10. At that age Ali could dance for 12 of 15 rounds and clinch for the other 3. Tyson would die trying to keep up. Foreman in his prime would destroy Tyson. Tyson would beat Frazier.

58. Texoz said:

    April 17th, 2009 at 9:25 pm

    Watch some of that tape of Ali on youtube. It really is amazing how he literally floated around his opponents and then would unleash a lightening quick flurry of punches. In some of those clips the difference in speed is comical.

    Reminds me of that photo of Secretariat at Belmont. Now that I think of it, those two occupy a similiar space in sports history, both figuratively in legend and literally in time.

    I know it’s a different subject, but there are some fun facts on the wiki page for Secretariat.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretariat_(horse)

59. glenn said:

    April 18th, 2009 at 6:05 am

    that makes sense what you say, scip, and it puts nj in a more reasonable light. the rest of jersey is obviously the source of the garden name and yet the people i know who despise jersey are right, too. come to think of it, look at louisiana and look at the crescent city. look at illinois and look at the windy city. i guess the nature of a place is usually far different from its cities.

    texoz, i’ve noticed what you mention. that era was responsible for an inordinate number of superlatives, and not just in sports. every now and then we have the next beatles or hendrix or elvis or patsy or marilyn or james dean or mlk.

    that era or close to it also brought ed gein to public consciousness. the little town in wisconsin where he collected his samples is still hounded today by the curious and the twisted.

    who today is likely to cast a long shadow? tiger? who else?

60. Sixth Street said:

    April 18th, 2009 at 6:56 am

    Frazier had incredible heart. Tyson…not so much. That heart is what gave Ali fits.

61. seven_fan said:

    April 19th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    Scipio,

    Thanks for pointing out this special. I honestly wouldn’t have known about it or watched until I read about this here. My wife and I were spellbound this morning watching this documentary. WOW. I definitely think this is something too important to ignore. To see how we’ve changed as a country since then is incredible.

    Thanks again.

62. TaylorTRoom said:

    April 22nd, 2009 at 4:30 am

    Just saw the documentary. My take is that Ali rode Frazier so hard before the fights because he knew he had to ratchet up the stakes for himself (and shame if he lost) in order to meet Frazier’s intensity. It was his decision, and it worked for him, but it was still a classless move.

63. Scipio Tex said:

    April 22nd, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    seven:

    You’re welcome. Glad I could turn you on to something interesting.

    Taylor:

    That’s a good point. I think there’s an even more basic element too: no one will ever resent you so much as someone you’ve done a favor for. Particularly if they imagine themselves superior to you.

    Throw in the fact that Ali has people in his ear 24/7 telling him that Frazier is an Uncle Tom and I think what you saw was more than just manufactured anger fueling his motivation.

64. Lapu-Lapu said:

    May 11th, 2009 at 9:06 pm

    I was just a little kid and I was there in the Philippines and even then I knew that I was witnessing history. My family having several TVs in the house, was completely packed. We had a family general store and my folks closed the store for the whole day so that everyone can watch the fight. I also remember that all the kids in the neighbor wanted to be like Ali. We all of course had to prove it to one another for several days after the event. Great times!

65. Tonya Osako said:

    March 10th, 2010 at 12:11 am

    Hey, I visit your blog occasionally.. I’d love to know if you have any problems with spammers. I really do on my blog.. What plugin do you use to get rid of it?

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